New file uploaded to richardiiisocietyforum

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Description : No matter what your credit is like ,there is a card here for you!

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File : /Richardýs ancient ancestors.ppt
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Description : To answer Kat's question!

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File : /A DNA swab RIII article.docx
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Description : Ben McIntyre article on R III

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File : /Current_Archaeology_Nov_2012.pdf
Uploaded by : reginadespazas <[email protected]>
Description : Current Archaeology Nov 2012

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reginadespazas <[email protected]>

Hello. Thanks for this file I have just been out looking for a copy.
Could you tell me where you got it or are you subscribed to it.
Regards and Best Wishes
Christine


________________________________
From: "" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 11:37
Subject: New file uploaded to


 


Hello,

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File : /Current_Archaeology_Nov_2012.pdf
Uploaded by : reginadespazas <mailto:docm%40silverwhistle.free-online.co.uk>
Description : Current Archaeology Nov 2012

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reginadespazas <mailto:docm%40silverwhistle.free-online.co.uk>

Thankyou....Eileen

--- In , wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> group.
>
> File : /Current_Archaeology_Nov_2012.pdf
> Uploaded by : reginadespazas <docm@...>
> Description : Current Archaeology Nov 2012
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/Current_Archaeology_Nov_2012.pdf
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> reginadespazas <docm@...>
>

Dear Christine,

I got my copy in Barrett's (local newsagent's shop) on Byres Road in
Glasgow. They only get a handful of copies. I got mine yesterday, as
soon as I spotted it, and my friend Elma got the last one today. Not
sure if they have more in the back to put out. As the university
(where I work in admin and as a medical history project assistant)
has an Archaeology Dept, they stock it as one of the nearest
newsagent's.

best wishes,
Marianne

Dear Marianne, Thank you I will try online, I don't know if Barrett's has an online site but will look.
I would subscribe to Current Archaeology but its a bit expensive for me as a pensioner.
I have the copy from the forum but I would like an origional for my Richard collection and records.
God Bless Richard
Best Wishes
Christine


________________________________
From: Dr M M Gilchrist <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 5 October 2012, 20:36
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to


 

Dear Christine,

I got my copy in Barrett's (local newsagent's shop) on Byres Road in
Glasgow. They only get a handful of copies. I got mine yesterday, as
soon as I spotted it, and my friend Elma got the last one today. Not
sure if they have more in the back to put out. As the university
(where I work in admin and as a medical history project assistant)
has an Archaeology Dept, they stock it as one of the nearest
newsagent's.

best wishes,
Marianne

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File : /BBC_History_Nov_2012.jpg
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Description : BBC History Magazine November 2012

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reginadespazas <[email protected]>

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File : /Portugal.ppt
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Description : The descent of the intended spouses of Richard III and Elizabeth of York.

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File : /Press Release Disability Is Not a Deformity.pdf
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Description : Press release: "Disability Is Not Deformity"

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File : /Richard III JRSocMed.pdf
Uploaded by : ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
Description : Richard III: A Study in Medical Misrepresentation

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ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>

What a great read!! Thank you.
Ishita

--- In , wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> group.
>
> File : /Really cool dating site
> Uploaded by : nutibijuwe6084
> Description : Free service that allows users to rate and review thousands of dating sites
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/Really%20cool%20dating%20site
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> nutibijuwe6084
>

I cannot access this file. It keeps saying the file is not available in the server!! I wanted to save the file. Being an artist this article holds special interest to me.


--- In , wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> group.
>
> File : / Click Here!
> Uploaded by : bartjohnosn <bartjohnosn@...>
> Description : No matter what your credit is like ,there is a card here for you!
>
> You can access this file at the URL
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/%20Click%20Here%21
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
>
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> bartjohnosn <bartjohnosn@...>
>

Hi, Ellrosa -



Thanks for uploading the article on "Medical Misrepresentation"!

What journal did it appear in?



It may be a very reputable medical journal, but just a quick glance at the
2nd. paragraph of the article disclosed this: "The misfortune began in 1483,
following the death of Richard's illegitimate [emphasis mine] brother King
Edward IV." That is certainly not something that would be widely accepted;
at the least it's a very controversial assertion. So - Ms. Tulloch may be a
great observer of medical matters, but that doesn't mean that the entire
article is to be taken as Gospel. <smile>



Two sentences further on, Ms. Tulloch continues: "However, in the same year,
Richard was crowned King after both of the young princes died under
mysterious circumstances." Ooops! As you no doubt are aware, Richard became
king when all of Edward's and Elizabeth Woodville's children were declared
illegitimate, because of the "precontract" between Eleanor Butler and Edward
was disclosed by Bishop Stillington; it was considered to be a valid
marriage (and thus Edward was a bigamist, and his offspring by Elizabeth
illegitimate).



More when I've had the chance to read the entire article.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 8:10 PM
To:
Subject: New file uploaded to







Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
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File : /Richard III JRSocMed.pdf
Uploaded by : ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...
<mailto:kathryn198%40btinternet.com> >
Description : Richard III: A Study in Medical Misrepresentation

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RSocMed.pdf

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Regards,

ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@... <mailto:kathryn198%40btinternet.com>
>

Hello,

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File : /Richard's Horses/Richard's horses
Uploaded by : christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
Description : Horses out to Grass

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christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>

Hello,

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File : /Richard and Anne's marriage dispensation.docx
Uploaded by : christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>
Description : Richard and Anne's Dispensation Article

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christineholmes651@... <christineholmes651@...>

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File : /R3_ONLY_Letter_Russell.jpg
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File : /Leas, 'As the King Gave Out'.pdf
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Description : Ricardian article on Tyrrell's supposed confession

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Hello,

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File : /Dispensation Article for Ricardian 2007.doc
Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
Description : Diriment Impediments, Dispensations & Divorce: RIII

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mariewalsh2003

> File : /Dispensation Article for Ricardian 2007.doc
> Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
> Description : Diriment Impediments, Dispensations & Divorce: RIII
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/Dispensation%20Article%20for%20Ricardian%202007.doc


Carol responds:

Thanks very much for uploading this file, which should put an end to any questions about the validity of Richard's marriage and ties in nicely with the discussion of the Buck letter as well. I wonder why the RIII site hasn't posted it. I think that certain well-known people who have publicly argued that Richard and Anne lacked the proper dispensations need to read it and retract their claws, er, arguments.

Carol

I completely agree with Carol! May e we can post it on the RIII society Facebook page with Marie's permission? If she deems it fit.

Ishita Bandyo
Sent from my iPad

On Feb 23, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> > File : /Dispensation Article for Ricardian 2007.doc
> > Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
> > Description : Diriment Impediments, Dispensations & Divorce: RIII
> >
> > You can access this file at the URL:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/Dispensation%20Article%20for%20Ricardian%202007.doc
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much for uploading this file, which should put an end to any questions about the validity of Richard's marriage and ties in nicely with the discussion of the Buck letter as well. I wonder why the RIII site hasn't posted it. I think that certain well-known people who have publicly argued that Richard and Anne lacked the proper dispensations need to read it and retract their claws, er, arguments.
>
> Carol
>
>

Go ahead! Of course, if I were writing it now there are small things I'd change which would strengthen it, but it's fine.
Marie

--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> I completely agree with Carol! May e we can post it on the RIII society Facebook page with Marie's permission? If she deems it fit.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 23, 2013, at 11:46 AM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > > File : /Dispensation Article for Ricardian 2007.doc
> > > Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
> > > Description : Diriment Impediments, Dispensations & Divorce: RIII
> > >
> > > You can access this file at the URL:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/Dispensation%20Article%20for%20Ricardian%202007.doc
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks very much for uploading this file, which should put an end to any questions about the validity of Richard's marriage and ties in nicely with the discussion of the Buck letter as well. I wonder why the RIII site hasn't posted it. I think that certain well-known people who have publicly argued that Richard and Anne lacked the proper dispensations need to read it and retract their claws, er, arguments.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hello,

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File : /page_from_RIII_catalogue.jpg
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Description : A page from the catalogue of the 1977 RIII exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery, showing "Tant le desire" motto and boar possibly drawn by Richard, R&A plaque and variant boar badges.

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File : /NewtonStillington geneal.jpg
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hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Not relevant to Richard's era, but my previous "connection" to the Newton
family - as breeders of racehorses --

http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Breeders/Newton/Newton.htm

Sir Michael Newton's sister married the first known owner of the Godolphin
Arabian. (That would be Edward Coke, Esq; died 1733).

A J


On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:24 PM, <>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> group.
>
> File : /NewtonStillington geneal.jpg
> Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
> Description : Stillington Butler relationship
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/NewtonStillington%20geneal.jpg
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html
> Regards,
>
> hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
>
>
>
>

Hello,

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File : /Historical notes of a London citizen, 1483-1488, EHR 1981.pdf
Uploaded by : blancsanglier1452 <blancsanglier1452@...>
Description : 'Buckingham's vise'...

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I have just finished this book.  For me, its whole premise founders if one does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate.  Or is there some mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?

Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?

________________________________

I think it very likely that the family cherished a cult of the Duke's memory but I am not sure how much evidence was available for it apart from the reburial at Fotheringhay. My memory of this book is what a dark story it told, with "our" Richard fated like someone out of Sophocles' plays. Quite disturbing.

Jan.

Sent from my iPad

On 14 Apr 2013, at 10:26, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

>
>
> I have just finished this book. For me, its whole premise founders if one does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate. Or is there some mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
>
> Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>

It is the same Jones, Michael K.
Whilst reserving judgement on the "archer" hypothesis and ignoring the "new location", the rest is excellent. He did introduce the pike and reject Ambion Hill as Richard's starting point. Far too much of a Senlac action replay, where the only other English King was killed in battle for the whole second millennium.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Furmidge
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 10:26 AM
Subject: Bosworth, the Psychology of a Battle





I have just finished this book. For me, its whole premise founders if one does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate. Or is there some mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?

Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?

________________________________

Can anyone tell me about the Earl of Lincoln's marriages, especially the second? At the moment I do not have access to the DNB, and so do not know if it provides any information. I only seem able to find out bare facts about Lincoln, nothing much about his personal life. Not even his second wife's first name. Any morsels will be gratefully received.

Thank you in advance.

Sandra

Sandra,
 
here you are
 Pole, John de la, earl of Lincoln (c.14601487), magnate and rebel, was the eldest son of John de la Pole, second duke of Suffolk (14421492), and Elizabeth (14441503/4), sister of Edward IV, who had married by the beginning of 1458. He was created earl of Lincoln on 13 March 1467, and was knighted with the king's sons on 18 April 1475. He played his part in court ceremonial: he attended Anne Mowbray at her wedding to the duke of York in January 1478, bore the salt at the baptism of Edward IV's daughter Bridget in November 1480, and was present at the king's funeral and interment in 1483. He carried the orb at the coronation of Richard III.

Lincoln supported Richard against the rebels of October 1483 and was rewarded the following April with land worth £157, and the reversion of Beaufort estates worth a further £178 after the death of Thomas, Lord Stanley, who had been granted a life interest in the land which his wife, Margaret Beaufort, had forfeited for her part in the rising. In the following month Lincoln was granted an annuity of £177 13s. 4d. from the duchy of Cornwall until the reversion materialized. When Richard's only son, Edward, died in April 1484 no heir was formally designated, but the appointment of Lincoln to the lieutenantship of Ireland on 21 August may have been intended to signal that he, rather than Clarence's son Edward, earl of Warwick, was regarded as the heir apparent. Lincoln was also made president of the council in the north, set up in the summer of 1484 as the successor to the prince's council, which had itself replaced Gloucester's ducal council as a way of
maintaining Richard's authority in the north. Lincoln's lack of independent standing in the north meant that he would act for the king, rather than in his own right. He was with the king at Nottingham on 1 August 1485 and, although not mentioned in any chronicle accounts, was probably present at Bosworth since the earliest report wrongly lists him among the dead. He escaped attainderperhaps the great and sovereign kindness' to which Henry VII referred after the earl's subsequent defection (RotP, 6.397)and, unlike the earl of Northumberland, seems not even to have been imprisoned. He was present at Henry's coronation at the end of October.

Lincoln's apparent attachment to the Tudor cause continued throughout 1486. He was with Henry VII at York in spring 1486, after the collapse of the rebellion of Lovell and Humphrey Stafford, and headed the inquiry into Stafford's treason. He was present at the christening of Prince Arthur at Worcester in September, and was still with the court at Greenwich on All Saints' day. He was present at Sheen in February 1487, when the existence of an impostor claiming to be the earl of Warwick was discussed and it was decided to show the real earl of Warwick to the people. Almost immediately afterwards, however, Lincoln fled to Flanders to join Viscount Lovell, and in his subsequent act of attainder the beginning of his treason is dated to 19 March, although later accounts suggest that he may have been implicated in the conspiracy before his flight.

With German and Swiss mercenaries provided by Margaret of York, dowager duchess of Burgundy, Lincoln and Lovell sailed for Ireland, and on 24 May a boy claiming to be the earl of Warwick was crowned Edward VI' at Dublin. On 4 June the rebels, their forces enlarged by Irish soldiers provided by the earl of Kildare and led by Thomas Fitzgerald, landed in Furness. They headed first east, into the Ricardian heartland of the North Riding, and then turned south. They had the better of a skirmish with Lord Clifford at Tadcaster, and reputedly drove back another detachment of royal troops. But, as in 1486, few former Ricardians of any standing joined them, and when on 16 June they faced a much larger royal army at Stoke near Newark (Nottinghamshire) they were defeated. Lincoln died in the battleto the annoyance of Henry VII, according to Polydore Vergil, who claimed that Henry had wanted him taken alive, so that he might learn more about the conspiracy
(Bennett, 1378). His body was buried in an unmarked grave on the battlefield.

Lincoln was posthumously attainted in the parliament of November 1487. The rights of his father (and by implication those of his widow) were protected in the lands which had been settled on Lincoln at his marriage to Margaret Fitzalan. She was the daughter of Thomas Fitzalan and Margaret Woodville, the sister of Edward IV's queen. Margaret and Thomas had been betrothed in October 1464, so the FitzalanLincoln match is unlikely to have been made much before the late 1470s, and perhaps even later: the duke of Suffolk presented to the living of one of the manors in 1480. There were no children of the marriage. Margaret was still living in October 1524 when her father bequeathed her a great ring with a turquoise. She apparently never remarried.

Rosemary Horrox
Sources  
Chancery records · RotP · GEC, Peerage · H. A. Napier, Historical notices of the parishes of Swyncombe and Ewelme in the county of Oxford (1858) · R. Horrox, Richard III, a study of service, Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life and Thought, 4th ser., 11 (1989) · M. Bennett, Lambert Simnel and the battle of Stoke (1987) · F. Blomefield and C. Parkin, An essay towards a topographical history of the county of Norfolk, 5 vols. (173975) · J. A. F. Thomson, John de la Pole, duke of Suffolk', Speculum, 54 (1979), 52842

Likenesses  
alabaster tomb effigy (with his wife), St Andrew's Church, Wingfield, Suffolk

© Oxford University Press 200413
All rights reserved: see legal notice
 
Rosemary Horrox, Pole, John de la, earl of Lincoln (c.14601487)', Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004 [http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/22449, accessed 14 April 2013]
John de la Pole (c.14601487): doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/22449


Back to top of biography Site credits


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 11:39
Subject: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

 
Can anyone tell me about the Earl of Lincoln's marriages, especially the second? At the moment I do not have access to the DNB, and so do not know if it provides any information. I only seem able to find out bare facts about Lincoln, nothing much about his personal life. Not even his second wife's first name. Any morsels will be gratefully received.

Thank you in advance.

Sandra

Thank you so much Liz. You are a star! I've read the information, twice, but can find no mention of two marriages. Or am I simply not seeing it? There are references elsewhere to a second marriage to the daughter and heiress of Sir John Golafre/Golofre. Do you think this is an error, and that Margaret Fitzalan was his only wife? Might a previous marriage have been annulled? There is also mention of a son, Edward de la Pole, who died young, although I cannot even be sure if there was such a child. How can it be that such an important Ricardian figure as Lincoln is so elusive?

Sandra

From: liz williams
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:01 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
Sandra,
here you are
Pole, John de la, earl of Lincoln (c.14601487), magnate and rebel, was the eldest son of John de la Pole, second duke of Suffolk (14421492), and Elizabeth (14441503/4), sister of Edward IV, who had married by the beginning of 1458. He was created earl of Lincoln on 13 March 1467, and was knighted with the king's sons on 18 April 1475. He played his part in court ceremonial: he attended Anne Mowbray at her wedding to the duke of York in January 1478, bore the salt at the baptism of Edward IV's daughter Bridget in November 1480, and was present at the king's funeral and interment in 1483. He carried the orb at the coronation of Richard III, etc...

Have you written a review for Amazon?

A J


On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Pamela Furmidge <
pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> I have just finished this book. For me, its whole premise founders if one
> does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate. Or is there some
> mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
>
> Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>

Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you so much Liz. You are a star! I’ve read the information, twice, but can find no mention of two marriages. Or am I simply not seeing it? There are references elsewhere to a second marriage to the daughter and heiress of Sir John Golafre/Golofre. Do you think this is an error, and that Margaret Fitzalan was his only wife? Might a previous marriage have been annulled? There is also mention of a son, Edward de la Pole, who died young, although I cannot even be sure if there was such a child. How can it be that such an important Ricardian figure as Lincoln is so elusive?
>
> Sandra
>
> From: liz williams
> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:01 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
> Sandra,
> here you are
> Pole, John de la, earl of Lincoln (c.1460â€"1487), magnate and rebel, was the eldest son of John de la Pole, second duke of Suffolk (1442â€"1492), and Elizabeth (1444â€"1503/4), sister of Edward IV, who had married by the beginning of 1458. He was created earl of Lincoln on 13 March 1467, and was knighted with the king's sons on 18 April 1475. He played his part in court ceremonial: he attended Anne Mowbray at her wedding to the duke of York in January 1478, bore the salt at the baptism of Edward IV's daughter Bridget in November 1480, and was present at the king's funeral and interment in 1483. He carried the orb at the coronation of Richard III, etc...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes. Might it have been another Harry Buckingham' marriage, much resented? A matter of affection? Or simply an arrangement with indifference on both sides? However, I'm still no further forward with how many wives Lincoln had, just that Margaret outlived him.

Sandra


From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:59 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln


Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

I have never seen a second wife suggested anywhere. There were rumours of a son but no sources and a possible conflation with a younger brother.
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraMachin
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln



Yes. Might it have been another Harry Buckingham' marriage, much resented? A matter of affection? Or simply an arrangement with indifference on both sides? However, I'm still no further forward with how many wives Lincoln had, just that Margaret outlived him.

Sandra

From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:59 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

No, not yet.  I was just curious as to what others felt:  I do not think that Edward IV was illegitimate and that coloured my response to the rest of his thesis.  I can see the logic of what he says regarding the Duke of York; but I have great difficulty with the view that Cicely would have been willing to confess before relevant authorities to having foisted a bastard on her husband as his heir and allowing him to be crowned king.  It does not fit with my view of her.


________________________________
 A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote



Have you written a review for Amazon?

A J


On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Pamela Furmidge <
pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> I have just finished this book.  For me, its whole premise founders if one
> does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate.  Or is there some
> mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
>
> Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Well, I agree that the story of Edward's illegitimacy seems unlikely &
probably arose out of some deliberate or careless confusion with the issue
of his sons' legitimacy.

A J


On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Pamela Furmidge <
pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> No, not yet. I was just curious as to what others felt: I do not think
> that Edward IV was illegitimate and that coloured my response to the rest
> of his thesis. I can see the logic of what he says regarding the Duke of
> York; but I have great difficulty with the view that Cicely would have been
> willing to confess before relevant authorities to having foisted a bastard
> on her husband as his heir and allowing him to be crowned king. It does
> not fit with my view of her.
>
> ________________________________
> A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote
>
>
> Have you written a review for Amazon?
>
> A J
>
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Pamela Furmidge <
> pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have just finished this book. For me, its whole premise founders if
> one
> > does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate. Or is there some
> > mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
> >
> > Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sandra,
 
is there any particular reason you think he was married more than once?
 
Liz


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 16:07
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

 
Yes. Might it have been another Harry Buckingham' marriage, much resented? A matter of affection? Or simply an arrangement with indifference on both sides? However, I'm still no further forward with how many wives Lincoln had, just that Margaret outlived him.

Sandra

From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:59 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

Hi Liz. Well, I found mention of it twice, can't remember one of them, but the other was http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/johndelapole.htm. Now, I'm not a historian, and do not know how reliable this site might be, but it cites:

Source:
Archbold, W. A. J. "John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln."
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XLVI. Sidney Lee, Ed.
New York: Macmillan and Co., 1896. 26-27.


So I tried to locate more, but couldn't pinpoint anything. Then I decided to approach the experts. Maybe, as Stephen suggests, it is a possible mix-up between two different de la Poles. The fact that nobody on the forum seems to know anything about a second wife suggests to me that it is definitely an error.

Sandra


From: liz williams
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:50 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln


Sandra,

is there any particular reason you think he was married more than once?

Liz

________________________________
From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 16:07
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln


Yes. Might it have been another Harry Buckingham' marriage, much resented? A matter of affection? Or simply an arrangement with indifference on both sides? However, I'm still no further forward with how many wives Lincoln had, just that Margaret outlived him.

Sandra

From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:59 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

If its this Sir John Golafre, he died childless. He did however marry the daughter of one de la Pole and the widow of another:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/golafre-john-1442


He also has a rather lifelike tomb effigy:

http://medieval-church-art.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/taste-for-macabre-late-medieval-cadaver.html



________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 19:25
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln



 
Hi Liz. Well, I found mention of it twice, can't remember one of them, but the other was http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/johndelapole.htm. Now, I'm not a historian, and do not know how reliable this site might be, but it cites:

Source:
Archbold, W. A. J. "John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln."
Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XLVI. Sidney Lee, Ed.
New York: Macmillan and Co., 1896. 26-27.

So I tried to locate more, but couldn't pinpoint anything. Then I decided to approach the experts. Maybe, as Stephen suggests, it is a possible mix-up between two different de la Poles. The fact that nobody on the forum seems to know anything about a second wife suggests to me that it is definitely an error.

Sandra

From: liz williams
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 6:50 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Sandra,

is there any particular reason you think he was married more than once?

Liz

________________________________
From: SandraMachin <mailto:sandramachin%40live.co.uk>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 16:07
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Yes. Might it have been another Harry Buckingham' marriage, much resented? A matter of affection? Or simply an arrangement with indifference on both sides? However, I'm still no further forward with how many wives Lincoln had, just that Margaret outlived him.

Sandra

From: ricard1an
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:59 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

Interesting that his wife was connected to the Woodvilles.

Thank you so much, David. The effigy is...not the best sight for first thing on a dismal Monday morning. <g> As for Lincoln, well, it seems more and more than he only had the one wife.

Sandra


From: david rayner
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

If its this Sir John Golafre, he died childless. He did however marry the daughter of one de la Pole and the widow of another:

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/golafre-john-1442

He also has a rather lifelike tomb effigy:

http://medieval-church-art.blogspot.co.uk/2008/09/taste-for-macabre-late-medieval-cadaver.html

"SandraMachin" wrote:
>
> Hi Liz. Well, I found mention of it twice, can’t remember one of them, but the other was http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/johndelapole.htm. Now, I’m not a historian, and do not know how reliable this site might be, but it cites:
>
> Source:
> Archbold, W. A. J. "John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln."
> Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XLVI. Sidney Lee, Ed.
> New York: Macmillan and Co., 1896. 26-27.
>
> So I tried to locate more, but couldn’t pinpoint anything. Then I decided to approach the experts. Maybe, as Stephen suggests, it is a possible mix-up between two different de la Poles. The fact that nobody on the forum seems to know anything about a second wife suggests to me that it is definitely an error.
>
> Sandra

Carol responds:

The Luminarium article is lifted verbarim (read plagiarized) from its "source," the old DNB article by W. A. J. Archbold, which you can read here:

http://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft_djvu.txt

Scroll down to Pole, John de la, Earl of Lincoln.

Since the old article apparently gets John's birth year wrong (1460 as stated in the Horrox article is much more likely than 1464, which would make him only eighteen at Bosworth and sixteen when Richard was crowned), I suspect that the second wife is also an error, especially since the first wife lived well into the next century.

Essentially, any information that you find on Luminarium is probably copied directly from an outdated source. For example, the Richard III, Edward IV, and Henry VII articles are excerpted from the 1910 Encyclopedia Britannica. (At least, they're actually cited as excerpts rather than plagiarized outright!)

The Old DNB is available in full online without a subscription, but, of course, it's out of date, which is why the new one was published. The easiest way that I know of to access it is through the links to the various volumes on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography

BTW, the old DNB's Richard III article is by "J. G."--James Gairdner--which should give you some idea of the view of Richard it depicts. Archbold's de la Pole article is probably influenced by Gairdner as well since he was the premier authority on Richard and his era at the time of publication (1896).

Carol

"BTW, the old DNB's Richard III article is by "J. G."--James Gairdner--which should give you some idea of the view of Richard it depicts. Archbold's de la Pole article is probably influenced by Gairdner as well since he was the premier authority on Richard and his era at the time of publication (1896)."

The Hicks of his day - if slightly more enlightened about the pre-contract.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln




"SandraMachin" wrote:
>
> Hi Liz. Well, I found mention of it twice, canâ?Tt remember one of them, but the other was http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/johndelapole.htm. Now, Iâ?Tm not a historian, and do not know how reliable this site might be, but it cites:
>
> Source:
> Archbold, W. A. J. "John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln."
> Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XLVI. Sidney Lee, Ed.
> New York: Macmillan and Co., 1896. 26-27.
>
> So I tried to locate more, but couldnâ?Tt pinpoint anything. Then I decided to approach the experts. Maybe, as Stephen suggests, it is a possible mix-up between two different de la Poles. The fact that nobody on the forum seems to know anything about a second wife suggests to me that it is definitely an error.
>
> Sandra

Carol responds:

The Luminarium article is lifted verbarim (read plagiarized) from its "source," the old DNB article by W. A. J. Archbold, which you can read here:

http://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft_djvu.txt

Scroll down to Pole, John de la, Earl of Lincoln.

Since the old article apparently gets John's birth year wrong (1460 as stated in the Horrox article is much more likely than 1464, which would make him only eighteen at Bosworth and sixteen when Richard was crowned), I suspect that the second wife is also an error, especially since the first wife lived well into the next century.

Essentially, any information that you find on Luminarium is probably copied directly from an outdated source. For example, the Richard III, Edward IV, and Henry VII articles are excerpted from the 1910 Encyclopedia Britannica. (At least, they're actually cited as excerpts rather than plagiarized outright!)

The Old DNB is available in full online without a subscription, but, of course, it's out of date, which is why the new one was published. The easiest way that I know of to access it is through the links to the various volumes on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography

BTW, the old DNB's Richard III article is by "J. G."--James Gairdner--which should give you some idea of the view of Richard it depicts. Archbold's de la Pole article is probably influenced by Gairdner as well since he was the premier authority on Richard and his era at the time of publication (1896).

Carol

Thank you, Carol. Yes, there were bloopers, and I was doubtful from the outset, but that mention of a second marriage had me wondering if perhaps that at least might be right.Wrong. So I won't bother about any second wife. He might have had enough on his hands with just the one! <g>

Sandra
From: justcarol67
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 7:37 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln

--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I agree that the story of Edward's illegitimacy seems unlikely & probably arose out of some deliberate or careless confusion with the issue of his sons' legitimacy.

Carol responds:

I agree that the story is unlikely to be true, but it can't have arisen through confusion with the illegitimacy of Edward's children. The rumor that Edward himself was the son of an archer was circulated by Warwick, Louis XI, and possibly George of Clarence (who revived it later) before Barnet (1471), seven years before the idea that the children might also be illegitimate may have surfaced ca. 1477-78 (arrest of Stillington and George's execution). But I agree that the whole Blaybourne story is unlikely to be true. Both an affair with an archer and allowing an illegitimate son to become king of England seem out of character for Cecily, and stepping forward to charge him with illegitimacy because she disapproved of his marriage is even more so.

I don't know if you've seen the earlier thread where I discussed Jones' views on this, but he seems to have badly misread Sir Thomas More and then taken what he thought he read at face value. In fact, More's Cecily confronts Edward saying that he can't marry Elizabeth Lucy because he has already promised to marry Elizabeth Lucy, who is pregnant with his child. The multiple absurdities and anachronisms in that version of events need not even be discussed. It's Mancini who has Cecily throwing a fit and calling Edward illegitimate, but by the time he heard the story, it was nineteen years old and no doubt seriously distorted by multiple retellings.

Carol

Sorry to come into this late but can I ask another question on this topic?

Audrey Williamson implies that Richard may have been using John as a 'temporary heir' and that he might have been considering re-instating the princes down the line if he failed to produce an heir from another marriage and when they were fully grown. What do you think?

It's quite a bold suggestion given that her book is so reasonable.

By the way for those of you who have had the persistence to follow the Cheddar story, John de la Pole is related to Joan (Hanham) Cheddar. His great x 2 grandmother was her sister Ismania Hanham.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> "SandraMachin" wrote:
> >
> > Hi Liz. Well, I found mention of it twice, can’t remember one of them, but the other was http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/johndelapole.htm. Now, I’m not a historian, and do not know how reliable this site might be, but it cites:
> >
> > Source:
> > Archbold, W. A. J. "John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln."
> > Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. XLVI. Sidney Lee, Ed.
> > New York: Macmillan and Co., 1896. 26-27.
> >
> > So I tried to locate more, but couldn’t pinpoint anything. Then I decided to approach the experts. Maybe, as Stephen suggests, it is a possible mix-up between two different de la Poles. The fact that nobody on the forum seems to know anything about a second wife suggests to me that it is definitely an error.
> >
> > Sandra
>
> Carol responds:
>
> The Luminarium article is lifted verbarim (read plagiarized) from its "source," the old DNB article by W. A. J. Archbold, which you can read here:
>
> http://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft/dictionaryofnati46stepuoft_djvu.txt
>
> Scroll down to Pole, John de la, Earl of Lincoln.
>
> Since the old article apparently gets John's birth year wrong (1460 as stated in the Horrox article is much more likely than 1464, which would make him only eighteen at Bosworth and sixteen when Richard was crowned), I suspect that the second wife is also an error, especially since the first wife lived well into the next century.
>
> Essentially, any information that you find on Luminarium is probably copied directly from an outdated source. For example, the Richard III, Edward IV, and Henry VII articles are excerpted from the 1910 Encyclopedia Britannica. (At least, they're actually cited as excerpts rather than plagiarized outright!)
>
> The Old DNB is available in full online without a subscription, but, of course, it's out of date, which is why the new one was published. The easiest way that I know of to access it is through the links to the various volumes on the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography
>
> BTW, the old DNB's Richard III article is by "J. G."--James Gairdner--which should give you some idea of the view of Richard it depicts. Archbold's de la Pole article is probably influenced by Gairdner as well since he was the premier authority on Richard and his era at the time of publication (1896).
>
> Carol
>

I don't know whether anyone has mentioned it yet, so I do apologise if they have, but the reason that Jones goes on about it is that he was the one who found the record in Rouen Cathedral which shows that ROY was away at the time of Edward's conception. I'm not saying I agree, but that's why that bit of the book takes that slant. 


________________________________
From: Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2013, 17:51
Subject: Re: Bosworth, the Psychology of a Battle

 

No, not yet.  I was just curious as to what others felt:  I do not think that Edward IV was illegitimate and that coloured my response to the rest of his thesis.  I can see the logic of what he says regarding the Duke of York; but I have great difficulty with the view that Cicely would have been willing to confess before relevant authorities to having foisted a bastard on her husband as his heir and allowing him to be crowned king.  It does not fit with my view of her.

________________________________
 A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote

Have you written a review for Amazon?

A J

On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 4:26 AM, Pamela Furmidge <
pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
>
> I have just finished this book.  For me, its whole premise founders if one
> does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate.  Or is there some
> mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
>
> Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
> 
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I'm new to this forum but just had to comment on this book (currently in progress, about 1/2 way through...) What I found original in Jones' approach was his insistence that RIII and his acts must be viewed in the context of a "family strategy"--putting him back into the premodern society that Shakespeare pulled him out of. Agree about the relentless darkness, perhaps the centrality of family helps recall Greek tragedy. I didn't think anyone could make his story seem more tragic, but Jones has succeeded. I actually had to put it aside for a few days. As for the plausibility of his theory---well, this the "Roshomon" aspect that makes history so fascinating and infuriating as well. There are so many mosaics that can be assembled out of the fragments of stories that we have inherited.

Anne

--- In , Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
>
> I think it very likely that the family cherished a cult of the Duke's memory but I am not sure how much evidence was available for it apart from the reburial at Fotheringhay. My memory of this book is what a dark story it told, with "our" Richard fated like someone out of Sophocles' plays. Quite disturbing.
>
> Jan.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 14 Apr 2013, at 10:26, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I have just finished this book. For me, its whole premise founders if one does not believe that Edward IV was not illegitimate. Or is there some mileage in the rest of it in relation to the Duke of York?
> >
> > Is it this Jones who is writing a book with Philippa?
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

From: hjnatdat
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 11:18 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
Audrey Williamson implies that Richard may have been using John as a 'temporary heir' and that he might have been considering re-instating the princes down the line if he failed to produce an heir from another marriage and when they were fully grown. What do you think? It's quite a bold suggestion given that her book is so reasonable.


Sandra thinks:
Yes, a bold suggestion, but I find it hard to accept that Richard, believing as he did that his eldest brother's children were illegitimate, would have even vaguely considered making them his heirs. If he was prepared to return them to the line of succession, I think he would have promoted' John of Gloucester first. We do not really know who John's mother was  she might have been every bit as well-born as Elizabeth Woodville, and therefore her child could have been on the same ranking' level And, unlike Richard's nephews, John was his own bloodline. As Richard did not, apparently, consider John of Gloucester in this way (or Clarence's son in the end, because of the attainder) I feel he definitely regarded John de la Pole as the legitimate blood heir. Richard would have stuck to the rules. After all, that's why he had accepted the throne in the first place. Well, that's just my opinion, and you all know by now that I'm no expert. High on imagination, low on the technical stuff. The story of my life.
As for Richard marrying again. For some reason I have great trouble imagining him taking a foreign princess. I have no idea why I find it problematic, I just do. It doesn't feel right. I know the evidence is there that he was at the very least considering it, and yes, if he'd lived, he would have married again. He had to if he wanted to produce a legitimate heir to his throne. But would such a bride really have come from another land? I know there is this double' marriage thing, with EoY being involved as well, and I know there are all sorts of sensible reasons for a foreign bride, to enable him to form alliances and so on, but it still does not seem entirely believable. Am I being illogical?
Sandra

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I question "temporary" King. With all the scheming for power, I would think, no matter what had been agreed to prior, would fly right out the window when one had the crown and scepter.

On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:59 AM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...<mailto:sandramachin@...>> wrote:



From: hjnatdat
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 11:18 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
Audrey Williamson implies that Richard may have been using John as a 'temporary heir' and that he might have been considering re-instating the princes down the line if he failed to produce an heir from another marriage and when they were fully grown. What do you think? It's quite a bold suggestion given that her book is so reasonable.

Sandra thinks:
Yes, a bold suggestion, but I find it hard to accept that Richard, believing as he did that his eldest brother's children were illegitimate, would have even vaguely considered making them his heirs. If he was prepared to return them to the line of succession, I think he would have promoted' John of Gloucester first. We do not really know who John's mother was  she might have been every bit as well-born as Elizabeth Woodville, and therefore her child could have been on the same ranking' level And, unlike Richard's nephews, John was his own bloodline. As Richard did not, apparently, consider John of Gloucester in this way (or Clarence's son in the end, because of the attainder) I feel he definitely regarded John de la Pole as the legitimate blood heir. Richard would have stuck to the rules. After all, that's why he had accepted the throne in the first place. Well, that's just my opinion, and you all know by now that I'm no expert. High on imagination, low on the technical stuff. The story of my life.
As for Richard marrying again. For some reason I have great trouble imagining him taking a foreign princess. I have no idea why I find it problematic, I just do. It doesn't feel right. I know the evidence is there that he was at the very least considering it, and yes, if he'd lived, he would have married again. He had to if he wanted to produce a legitimate heir to his throne. But would such a bride really have come from another land? I know there is this double' marriage thing, with EoY being involved as well, and I know there are all sorts of sensible reasons for a foreign bride, to enable him to form alliances and so on, but it still does not seem entirely believable. Am I being illogical?
Sandra

I don't think you're illogical about the foreign bride thing. It was the dreaded Ross who said the Yorkists never got round to thinking of themselves as kings, because they hadn't inherited the throne in the same way as say, Richard II. He might have made noises that he was intending to marry an overseas bride, as expected, given the Tudor threat but like you I'm not sure. And how would a man who'd spent most of his time in the wilds of Yorkshire ever really adapt to 'court' life for long?
 
It's interesting, in the programme last night about William II it was said that he found it hard to give up the life of a soldier for that of a king; in fact he never really did. I wonder how long it would have been before Richard got to that stage?
 
As for Williamson, I found that a really strange suggestion; very unlike her. 


________________________________
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 7:59
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln


 

From: hjnatdat
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 11:18 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
Audrey Williamson implies that Richard may have been using John as a 'temporary heir' and that he might have been considering re-instating the princes down the line if he failed to produce an heir from another marriage and when they were fully grown. What do you think? It's quite a bold suggestion given that her book is so reasonable.

Sandra thinks:
Yes, a bold suggestion, but I find it hard to accept that Richard, believing as he did that his eldest brother's children were illegitimate, would have even vaguely considered making them his heirs. If he was prepared to return them to the line of succession, I think he would have promoted' John of Gloucester first. We do not really know who John's mother was  she might have been every bit as well-born as Elizabeth Woodville, and therefore her child could have been on the same ranking' level And, unlike Richard's nephews, John was his own bloodline. As Richard did not, apparently, consider John of Gloucester in this way (or Clarence's son in the end, because of the attainder) I feel he definitely regarded John de la Pole as the legitimate blood heir. Richard would have stuck to the rules. After all, that's why he had accepted the throne in the first place. Well, that's just my opinion, and you all know by now that I'm no
expert. High on imagination, low on the technical stuff. The story of my life.
As for Richard marrying again. For some reason I have great trouble imagining him taking a foreign princess. I have no idea why I find it problematic, I just do. It doesn't feel right. I know the evidence is there that he was at the very least considering it, and yes, if he'd lived, he would have married again. He had to if he wanted to produce a legitimate heir to his throne. But would such a bride really have come from another land? I know there is this double' marriage thing, with EoY being involved as well, and I know there are all sorts of sensible reasons for a foreign bride, to enable him to form alliances and so on, but it still does not seem entirely believable. Am I being illogical?
Sandra

Hilary wrote:
> Audrey Williamson implies that Richard may have been using John as a 'temporary heir' and that he might have been considering re-instating the princes down the line if he failed to produce an heir from another marriage and when they were fully grown. What do you think? It's quite a bold suggestion given that her book is so reasonable.
>
Sandra responded:
> Yes, a bold suggestion, but I find it hard to accept that Richard, believing as he did that his eldest brother’s children were illegitimate, would have even vaguely considered making them his heirs. [snip] I feel he definitely regarded John de la Pole as the legitimate blood heir. Richard would have stuck to the rules. After all, that’s why he had accepted the throne in the first place. [snip]
> As for Richard marrying again. For some reason I have great trouble imagining him taking a foreign princess. I have no idea why I find it problematic, I just do. It doesn’t feel right. I know the evidence is there that he was at the very least considering it, and yes, if he’d lived, he would have married again. He had to if he wanted to produce a legitimate heir to his throne. But would such a bride really have come from another land? [snip]

Carol responds:

I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all the proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard, maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was next in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim was through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).

As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended to do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.

Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might have been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies would have been different.

And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as a suitable successor.

Carol

IMO, Williamson suggested that Richard might be planning to make Edward his heir only because she didn't know about the Portuguese marriage negotiations.

Hello Carol.
Well, I didn't exactly say it wasn't true, just that I, for some reason, find it difficult to accept. Something about the whole thing, solid as the evidence may be, does not convince me. And probably never will, unless a letter turns up, written in his own hand, urging Joanna to come on over and they'd roll in the hay without further ado. Let's face it, on a parade ground I'd be one of the few in step! <g>
Sandra

From: justcarol67
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:32 PM
To:
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln


As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended to do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.

Richard the man likely wouldn't have chosen a foreign princess as his second wife. Unfortunately, Richard wasn't just a man in 1484: he was an anointed king without a consort, and he had very specific responsibilities. When you think of Richard negotiating to marry a foreign princess, it might be easier to envision him and his council as the prospective groom rather than Richard by himself. Everything he did at this point, he was doing for England and not for himself at this point in his life.

The king had two dynastic priorities, which is why marriage negotiations with Portugal began before Anne died, and why the King sat for an official portrait to be sent out with the negotiations while his consort lay dying. His priorities were:

1. Unite the houses of York and Lancaster.
2. Get an heir.
(3) Get rid of the Tydder.

The legitimate male line of Lancaster died with Henry IV. The legitimate female line of Lancaster was also extinct. There *were* living descendants of HIV's sister and half-sister. The most direct heirs of these two lines were King John II of Portugal and Queen Isabel of Castile.

The House of Avis in Portugal had a stronger dynastic claim than the Castilian House of Trastamara. (Avis was senior.) This is why Richard was negotiating to marry the Infanta Joana of Portugal, who was only a few months older than Richard. His second choice was the 14-year-old Spanish infanta, Isabel of Castille.

In "The Last Days of R3," John Ashdown-Hill points out that there is no official evidence that Richard ever appointed an heir. He didn't know he was going to die soon, and so had every intention of remarrying and getting an heir off his new queen. John de la Pole would have been his heir presumptive until Richard had a son.

It's cold and unromantic, but dynastic necessity is what it is. Richard was doing his duty as King.

~Weds

--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:

<clipped>
.
.
.
> As for Richard marrying again. For some reason I have great trouble imagining him taking a foreign princess. I have no idea why I find it problematic, I just do. It doesn’t feel right. I know the evidence is there that he was at the very least considering it, and yes, if he’d lived, he would have married again. He had to if he wanted to produce a legitimate heir to his throne. But would such a bride really have come from another land? I know there is this ‘double’ marriage thing, with EoY being involved as well, and I know there are all sorts of sensible reasons for a foreign bride, to enable him to form alliances and so on, but it still does not seem entirely believable. Am I being illogical?

Carol wrote

"I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all the
proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative
ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard,
maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was next
in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female
line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim was
through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).
As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to
disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain
were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian
connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a
way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended to
do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or
political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.
Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might have
been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred
years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies would
have been different.
And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as a
suitable successor."

Doug here:
I once queried on an earlier (much earlier!) thread on whether Richard might
have legitimized his nephews by adioption. I believe it was Stephen who
disposed of that possibility. So I'm in full agreement with your conclusion
that John would have represented Richard's "spare" whether or not the
Portugese proposals ever came to anything or, if they did, Richard and
Joanna failed to produce a direct heir.
I tend to think that John never openly being "declared" Richard's heir is
one of the reasons for the confusion after Bosworth. Titulus Regius was, for
want of a better term, a "civil" or political declaration about the validity
of the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville but, if I understand it
correctly, it was the Church that had final say on the matter and the Church
was never directly involved.
Tudor's stance was, obviously, that TR was merely a political act that
didn't even represent the truth and once repealed all remarks about the
legitimacy of the marriage was, at the very least, lese majesty; in effect
treason.
But I can't believe that the withdrawal of TR stopped those who knew about
it from still wondering: "Are they or aren't they?"
Which is *not* a good recruiting tool.
Doug

It was a secret ceremony but he later bore witness to it having happened.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln




Carol wrote

"I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all the
proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative
ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard,
maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was next
in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female
line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim was
through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).
As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to
disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain
were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian
connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a
way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended to
do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or
political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.
Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might have
been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred
years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies would
have been different.
And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as a
suitable successor."

Doug here:
I once queried on an earlier (much earlier!) thread on whether Richard might
have legitimized his nephews by adioption. I believe it was Stephen who
disposed of that possibility. So I'm in full agreement with your conclusion
that John would have represented Richard's "spare" whether or not the
Portugese proposals ever came to anything or, if they did, Richard and
Joanna failed to produce a direct heir.
I tend to think that John never openly being "declared" Richard's heir is
one of the reasons for the confusion after Bosworth. Titulus Regius was, for
want of a better term, a "civil" or political declaration about the validity
of the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville but, if I understand it
correctly, it was the Church that had final say on the matter and the Church
was never directly involved.
Tudor's stance was, obviously, that TR was merely a political act that
didn't even represent the truth and once repealed all remarks about the
legitimacy of the marriage was, at the very least, lese majesty; in effect
treason.
But I can't believe that the withdrawal of TR stopped those who knew about
it from still wondering: "Are they or aren't they?"
Which is *not* a good recruiting tool.
Doug

Annette's book says that the matter of the pre-contract was referrred to the Church in late 1483. Like Edward's codicil, Hastings' trial records and (but not for long) Titulus Regius itself, another document favourable to Richard has disappeared.
I have borrowed thince once, over Christmas, but will not buy it until the new edition becomes available.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln




Carol wrote

"I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all the
proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative
ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard,
maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was next
in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female
line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim was
through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).
As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to
disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain
were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian
connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a
way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended to
do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or
political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.
Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might have
been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred
years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies would
have been different.
And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as a
suitable successor."

Doug here:
I once queried on an earlier (much earlier!) thread on whether Richard might
have legitimized his nephews by adioption. I believe it was Stephen who
disposed of that possibility. So I'm in full agreement with your conclusion
that John would have represented Richard's "spare" whether or not the
Portugese proposals ever came to anything or, if they did, Richard and
Joanna failed to produce a direct heir.
I tend to think that John never openly being "declared" Richard's heir is
one of the reasons for the confusion after Bosworth. Titulus Regius was, for
want of a better term, a "civil" or political declaration about the validity
of the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville but, if I understand it
correctly, it was the Church that had final say on the matter and the Church
was never directly involved.
Tudor's stance was, obviously, that TR was merely a political act that
didn't even represent the truth and once repealed all remarks about the
legitimacy of the marriage was, at the very least, lese majesty; in effect
treason.
But I can't believe that the withdrawal of TR stopped those who knew about
it from still wondering: "Are they or aren't they?"
Which is *not* a good recruiting tool.
Doug

I finally received word from Amazon.co.uk that the copy I ordered February
11 has been dispatched, but no clarification whether it's a reprinting of
the old edition, or the new one.

A J


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Annette's book says that the matter of the pre-contract was referrred to
> the Church in late 1483. Like Edward's codicil, Hastings' trial records and
> (but not for long) Titulus Regius itself, another document favourable to
> Richard has disappeared.
> I have borrowed thince once, over Christmas, but will not buy it until the
> new edition becomes available.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:35 PM
> Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of
> Lincoln
>
> Carol wrote
>
> "I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all the
> proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative
> ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard,
> maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was next
> in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female
> line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim
> was
> through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).
> As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to
> disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and Spain
> were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate Lancastrian
> connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a
> way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended
> to
> do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth or
> political connections would provide anything resembling an equal advantage.
> Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might have
> been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred
> years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies
> would
> have been different.
> And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as a
> suitable successor."
>
> Doug here:
> I once queried on an earlier (much earlier!) thread on whether Richard
> might
> have legitimized his nephews by adioption. I believe it was Stephen who
> disposed of that possibility. So I'm in full agreement with your
> conclusion
> that John would have represented Richard's "spare" whether or not the
> Portugese proposals ever came to anything or, if they did, Richard and
> Joanna failed to produce a direct heir.
> I tend to think that John never openly being "declared" Richard's heir is
> one of the reasons for the confusion after Bosworth. Titulus Regius was,
> for
> want of a better term, a "civil" or political declaration about the
> validity
> of the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville but, if I understand
> it
> correctly, it was the Church that had final say on the matter and the
> Church
> was never directly involved.
> Tudor's stance was, obviously, that TR was merely a political act that
> didn't even represent the truth and once repealed all remarks about the
> legitimacy of the marriage was, at the very least, lese majesty; in effect
> treason.
> But I can't believe that the withdrawal of TR stopped those who knew about
> it from still wondering: "Are they or aren't they?"
> Which is *not* a good recruiting tool.
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>

Stephen Lark wrote:

"It was a secret ceremony but he later bore witness to it having happened."

!!!!!
So Stillington *wasn't* the person who performed the marriage *or* served as
the witness to it, but only "knew" about it?
Oh...
Doug

Stillington almost certainly performed the ceremony. As Edward and Eleanor had both died by summer 1483, he was the only person alive who had witnessed them marrying each other.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln




Stephen Lark wrote:

"It was a secret ceremony but he later bore witness to it having happened."

!!!!!
So Stillington *wasn't* the person who performed the marriage *or* served as
the witness to it, but only "knew" about it?
Oh...
Doug

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Stillington almost certainly performed the ceremony. As Edward and Eleanor had both died by summer 1483, he was the only person alive who had witnessed them marrying each other.
>

But do we *know* there were no other witnesses?

I can now say that my copy just arrived & it is the "Updated edition
revealing new discoveries" & includes photos of the facial reconstruction.

A J


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:30 AM, A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:

> I finally received word from Amazon.co.uk that the copy I ordered
> February 11 has been dispatched, but no clarification whether it's a
> reprinting of the old edition, or the new one.
>
> A J
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Annette's book says that the matter of the pre-contract was referrred to
>> the Church in late 1483. Like Edward's codicil, Hastings' trial records and
>> (but not for long) Titulus Regius itself, another document favourable to
>> Richard has disappeared.
>> I have borrowed thince once, over Christmas, but will not buy it until
>> the new edition becomes available.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of
>> Lincoln
>>
>> Carol wrote
>>
>> "I agree completely with your first paragraph. John on Lincoln had all
>> the
>> proper qualifications (loyalty, blood, and, apparently, administrative
>> ability) to be Richard's legitimate and rightful heir. After Richard,
>> maintaining the same objections to Edward's and George's sons, he was
>> next
>> in succession, the only objection to him being that he came from a female
>> line (hardly a significant objection considering that the Yorkist claim
>> was
>> through Philippa Mortimer, daughter of Lionel of Antwerp).
>> As for Richard's not seriously considering a foreign marriage, I have to
>> disagree. He needed powerful allies against France, and Portugal and
>> Spain
>> were the obvious choices, with the added benefit of legitimate
>> Lancastrian
>> connections that really would unite the houses of York and Lancaster in a
>> way that the marriage of Henry Tudor to Elizabeth of York only pretended
>> to
>> do. There were, in any case, no suitable English heiresses whose wealth
>> or
>> political connections would provide anything resembling an equal
>> advantage.
>> Imagine if Richard had survived Bosworth and married Joanna. He might
>> have
>> been involved in expeditions settling the New World more than a hundred
>> years before Jamestown, and the whole history of the American colonies
>> would
>> have been different.
>> And if Joanna failed to produce an heir, he still had John of Lincoln as
>> a
>> suitable successor."
>>
>> Doug here:
>> I once queried on an earlier (much earlier!) thread on whether Richard
>> might
>> have legitimized his nephews by adioption. I believe it was Stephen who
>> disposed of that possibility. So I'm in full agreement with your
>> conclusion
>> that John would have represented Richard's "spare" whether or not the
>> Portugese proposals ever came to anything or, if they did, Richard and
>> Joanna failed to produce a direct heir.
>> I tend to think that John never openly being "declared" Richard's heir is
>> one of the reasons for the confusion after Bosworth. Titulus Regius was,
>> for
>> want of a better term, a "civil" or political declaration about the
>> validity
>> of the marriage of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville but, if I understand
>> it
>> correctly, it was the Church that had final say on the matter and the
>> Church
>> was never directly involved.
>> Tudor's stance was, obviously, that TR was merely a political act that
>> didn't even represent the truth and once repealed all remarks about the
>> legitimacy of the marriage was, at the very least, lese majesty; in
>> effect
>> treason.
>> But I can't believe that the withdrawal of TR stopped those who knew
>> about
>> it from still wondering: "Are they or aren't they?"
>> Which is *not* a good recruiting tool.
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

That was an interesting point made by someone..Doug maybe?...that Hastings might have attended the ceremony... how murky it all is...eileen

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Stillington almost certainly performed the ceremony. As Edward and Eleanor had both died by summer 1483, he was the only person alive who had witnessed them marrying each other.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln
>
>
>
>
> Stephen Lark wrote:
>
> "It was a secret ceremony but he later bore witness to it having happened."
>
> !!!!!
> So Stillington *wasn't* the person who performed the marriage *or* served as
> the witness to it, but only "knew" about it?
> Oh...
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

No but nobody else would be required and I can't convince myself of any particular individual being there. Edward may have told Hastings, for instance, later.
----- Original Message -----
From: pansydobersby
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln



--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Stillington almost certainly performed the ceremony. As Edward and Eleanor had both died by summer 1483, he was the only person alive who had witnessed them marrying each other.
>

But do we *know* there were no other witnesses?

Stephen Lark wrote:

"Stillington almost certainly performed the ceremony. As Edward and Eleanor
had both died by summer 1483, he was the only person alive who had witnessed
them marrying each other."

Doug here:
Whew! For a minute there...
I've always presumed, mostly by the way the various accounts were written,
that he was either the person who married Edward and Eleanor or served as
the witness to the ceremony.
Are we certain, as much as possible, that it *was* Stillington who married
them? Was he already a bishop then or could *he* have been the witness and
another member of the clergy actually performed the ceremony?
In any case, am I even correct in presuming there *had* to be a fourth
person involved; whether as the witness or the one who performed the
ceremony? And if so do we have any ides of who *that* person could have
been?
Doug

Stephen Lark wrote:

"No but nobody else would be required and I can't convince myself of any
particular individual being there. Edward may have told Hastings, for
instance, later."

Doug here:
Thanks. I sent off a query about this before reading the whole thread,
sorry!

For someone known to history as 'Proud Cis' I cannot believe she would accuse herself of adultery in the way proposed by Jones.  There is also her will, written presumably close to her death where she makes a point of referring to Edward as the true son of Richard of York.  For someone known for their piety in later life, this would have been a big sin with little time to 'rectify' it, if untrue.

I take your point, Carol, regarding the uncritical use of More.  It seems strange that a historian taking a 'non-traditional' view of Edward's legitimacy or lack of it, should put such faith in traditional sources such as More.



________________________________
 justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:




  --- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:>

> Well, I agree that the story of Edward's illegitimacy seems unlikely & probably arose out of some deliberate or careless confusion with the issue of his sons' legitimacy.

Carol responds:

I agree that the story is unlikely to be true, but it can't have arisen through confusion with the illegitimacy of Edward's children. The rumor that Edward himself was the son of an archer was circulated by Warwick, Louis XI, and possibly George of Clarence (who revived it later) before Barnet (1471), seven years before the idea that the children might also be illegitimate may have surfaced ca. 1477-78 (arrest of Stillington and George's execution). But I agree that the whole Blaybourne story is unlikely to be true. Both an affair with an archer and allowing an illegitimate son to become king of England seem out of character for Cecily, and stepping forward to charge him with illegitimacy because she disapproved of his marriage is even more so.

I don't know if you've seen the earlier thread where I discussed Jones' views on this, but he seems to have badly misread Sir Thomas More and then taken what he thought he read at face value. In fact, More's Cecily confronts Edward saying that he can't marry Elizabeth Lucy because he has already promised to marry Elizabeth Lucy, who is pregnant with his child. The multiple absurdities and anachronisms in that version of events need not even be discussed. It's Mancini who has Cecily throwing a fit and calling Edward illegitimate, but by the time he heard the story, it was nineteen years old and no doubt seriously distorted by multiple retellings.

Carol

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Carol earlier:

> [snip] I don't know if you've seen the earlier thread where I discussed Jones' views on this, but he seems to have badly misread Sir Thomas More and then taken what he thought he read at face value. In fact, More's Cecily confronts Edward saying that he can't marry Elizabeth Lucy because he has already promised to marry Elizabeth Lucy, who is pregnant with his child. [snip]

Carol again:

Just now catching this blunder. Obviously, I meant "he can't marry Elizabeth Woodville because he has already promised to marry Elizabeth Lucy." I hope that everybody mentally made that correction!

Carol

" The rumor that Edward himself was the son of an archer was circulated by
Warwick, Louis XI, and possibly George of Clarence (who revived it later)
before Barnet (1471), seven years before the idea that the children might
also be illegitimate may have surfaced ca. 1477-78 (arrest of Stillington and
George's execution)."

1) I'd forgot about George smearing his own mother.

(snark turned on) But that can't be so -- Thomas More sez that Evil Roy
Slade Richard was the one who smeared Cis (and while Dickon lived with
Cicely in her place in London, no less) and we all know that More is infallible!
(snark turned off)

Seriously, that's fascinating. I wonder just how much of the not-so-nice
things attributed to Richard were actually things done or said by others.
(And this really does seem to be Morton and More's thing -- their most
devastating lies were actually truths twisted, perverted and/or extrapolated.)

2) As a neophyte in RIII matters, I find it very interesting that the idea
that Edward's sons by EW might have been illegitimate started well before
Edward's death, and so wasn't something invented by Richard after Ned was in
the ground, the way the historians cribbing from More-Morton think. Are
there any good sources for this?

Furthermore, is there anything to indicate that George either started or
helped spread the rumor about the boys' illegitimacy, much as he was
apparently happy to impugn his own mother? (Or was he less eager to spread true
rumors than false ones?)




In a message dated 4/19/2013 1:51:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
pamela.furmidge@... writes:

For someone known to history as 'Proud Cis' I cannot believe she would
accuse herself of adultery in the way proposed by Jones. There is also her
will, written presumably close to her death where she makes a point of
referring to Edward as the true son of Richard of York. For someone known for
their piety in later life, this would have been a big sin with little time
to 'rectify' it, if untrue.

I take your point, Carol, regarding the uncritical use of More. It seems
strange that a historian taking a 'non-traditional' view of Edward's
legitimacy or lack of it, should put such faith in traditional sources such as
More.



________________________________
justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:




--- In , A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...>
wrote:>

> Well, I agree that the story of Edward's illegitimacy seems unlikely &
probably arose out of some deliberate or careless confusion with the issue
of his sons' legitimacy.

Carol responds:

I agree that the story is unlikely to be true, but it can't have arisen
through confusion with the illegitimacy of Edward's children. The rumor that
Edward himself was the son of an archer was circulated by Warwick, Louis
XI, and possibly George of Clarence (who revived it later) before Barnet
(1471), seven years before the idea that the children might also be
illegitimate may have surfaced ca. 1477-78 (arrest of Stillington and George's
execution). But I agree that the whole Blaybourne story is unlikely to be true.
Both an affair with an archer and allowing an illegitimate son to become king
of England seem out of character for Cecily, and stepping forward to
charge him with illegitimacy because she disapproved of his marriage is even
more so.

I don't know if you've seen the earlier thread where I discussed Jones'
views on this, but he seems to have badly misread Sir Thomas More and then
taken what he thought he read at face value. In fact, More's Cecily confronts
Edward saying that he can't marry Elizabeth Lucy because he has already
promised to marry Elizabeth Lucy, who is pregnant with his child. The
multiple absurdities and anachronisms in that version of events need not even be
discussed. It's Mancini who has Cecily throwing a fit and calling Edward
illegitimate, but by the time he heard the story, it was nineteen years old
and no doubt seriously distorted by multiple retellings.

Carol




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

khafara@... wrote:

> [snip]
2) As a neophyte in RIII matters, I find it very interesting that the idea that Edward's sons by EW might have been illegitimate started well before Edward's death, and so wasn't something invented by Richard after Ned was in the ground, the way the historians cribbing from More-Morton think. Are there any good sources for this?
>
> Furthermore, is there anything to indicate that George either started or helped spread the rumor about the boys' illegitimacy, much as he was apparently happy to impugn his own mother? (Or was he less eager to spread true rumors than false ones?)

Carol responds:

Hi, Khafara. (Is that what you want us to call you?)

Although the attainder against George explicitly charges George with spreading the rumor of Edward's illegitimacy, it says nothing about his spreading a similar rumor about Edward's children. There are two possible explanations: 1) He didn't spread the rumor, either because he didn't know about the EB/E4 marriage or because it never happened or 2) He did spread the rumor but it was too dangerous to be included in the attainder (Edward, like Tudor after him, probably wanted it to "be for ever out of remembrance and also forgot").

The primary evidence that George did know about the EB marriage (whether or not he spread the rumor) is the arrest of Stillington at about the same time that George was being tried for treason. (Presumably, George's execution silenced Stillington.)

If you haven't already them, I suggest reading Kendall's "Richard III," which devotes a whole chapter to George, and John Ashdown-Hill's "Eleanor: The Secret Queen," which contains a lengthy discussion of the attainder (itself included in an appendix) and, of course, presents the evidence for the Butler/Er marriage itself. J A-H has an upcoming biography of George of Clarence, which many of us are eager to read:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Third-Plantagenet-Clarence-Richard-Brother/dp/0752499491/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366580891&sr=1-4

I like the fact that J A-H refers to George as "Richard III's brother" rather than "Edward IV's brother." Take that, Eddie!

Carol

Thanks, Carol!

1) I've got Amazon downloads of J A-H's Secret Queen, Last Days, and Beloved Cousyn, but have only started reading Last Days. Got to get cracking!

2) I go by Tamara (there's a long, boring story about my AOL nick, which I will spare you all from reading).

Tamara







-----Original Message-----
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To: <>
Sent: Sun, Apr 21, 2013 4:51 pm
Subject: Rumor-spreading George (Was: Bosworth, the Psychology of a Battle)




khafara@... wrote:

> [snip]
2) As a neophyte in RIII matters, I find it very interesting that the idea that
Edward's sons by EW might have been illegitimate started well before Edward's
death, and so wasn't something invented by Richard after Ned was in the ground,
the way the historians cribbing from More-Morton think. Are there any good
sources for this?
>
> Furthermore, is there anything to indicate that George either started or
helped spread the rumor about the boys' illegitimacy, much as he was apparently
happy to impugn his own mother? (Or was he less eager to spread true rumors
than false ones?)

Carol responds:

Hi, Khafara. (Is that what you want us to call you?)

Although the attainder against George explicitly charges George with spreading
the rumor of Edward's illegitimacy, it says nothing about his spreading a
similar rumor about Edward's children. There are two possible explanations: 1)
He didn't spread the rumor, either because he didn't know about the EB/E4
marriage or because it never happened or 2) He did spread the rumor but it was
too dangerous to be included in the attainder (Edward, like Tudor after him,
probably wanted it to "be for ever out of remembrance and also forgot").

The primary evidence that George did know about the EB marriage (whether or not
he spread the rumor) is the arrest of Stillington at about the same time that
George was being tried for treason. (Presumably, George's execution silenced
Stillington.)

If you haven't already them, I suggest reading Kendall's "Richard III," which
devotes a whole chapter to George, and John Ashdown-Hill's "Eleanor: The Secret
Queen," which contains a lengthy discussion of the attainder (itself included in
an appendix) and, of course, presents the evidence for the Butler/Er marriage
itself. J A-H has an upcoming biography of George of Clarence, which many of us
are eager to read:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Third-Plantagenet-Clarence-Richard-Brother/dp/0752499491/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1366580891&sr=1-4

I like the fact that J A-H refers to George as "Richard III's brother" rather
than "Edward IV's brother." Take that, Eddie!

Carol





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Marie uploaded a file at:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//files/EIV%20%26%20Eleanor%20consanguinity%20%26%20Affinity.pdf

Carol responds:

Thanks, Marie. But has anyone besides me noticed that *none* of the URLs posted recently is working? I've found that I can copy and paste the URL, removing the slash {or is it a backslash?), \, but I'd rather know what is causing the problem and how we can prevent it. I suppose everyone who posts a URL could supply a Tinyurl as a backup. Or we could complain to Yahoo, for whatever good that would do.

Carol, who is essentially lurking at this point because she has nothing to contribute to the current discussions

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If anyone would like to do so, you can light a virtual candle at any number of sites for Richard.

These float on a sea of candles (requires that you enter your email address for confirmation; you can hover your cursor over the candles on the water to read them):
http://www.lightacandle.co.uk/

The site below has candles burning in their own, individual niches. You don't have to enter your email address to light one. A group can be assigned: I've started a group under "R" (they let you enter only one initial; you'll see it when you enter your country).

My candle is here:
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/message.cfm?l=eng&cid=19183656

The site is here:
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng

Other sites can be found by Googling, "light a virtual candle".

Peace,
Wednesday

Thank you Wedneday, that is a nice idea.  I have lit a candle for his grace as well.




________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 22 August 2013 1:23 PM
Subject: Light a virtual candle for His Grace



 
If anyone would like to do so, you can light a virtual candle at any number of sites for Richard.

These float on a sea of candles (requires that you enter your email address for confirmation; you can hover your cursor over the candles on the water to read them):
http://www.lightacandle.co.uk/

The site below has candles burning in their own, individual niches. You don't have to enter your email address to light one. A group can be assigned: I've started a group under "R" (they let you enter only one initial; you'll see it when you enter your country).

My candle is here:
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/message.cfm?l=eng&cid=19183656

The site is here:
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng

Other sites can be found by Googling, "light a virtual candle".

Peace,
Wednesday

What a really lovely idea. Thank-you for suggesting this. Have lit a candle for Richard.

Kate


--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> If anyone would like to do so, you can light a virtual candle at any number of sites for Richard.
>
> These float on a sea of candles (requires that you enter your email address for confirmation; you can hover your cursor over the candles on the water to read them):
> http://www.lightacandle.co.uk/
>
> The site below has candles burning in their own, individual niches. You don't have to enter your email address to light one. A group can be assigned: I've started a group under "R" (they let you enter only one initial; you'll see it when you enter your country).
>
> My candle is here:
> http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/message.cfm?l=eng&cid=19183656
>
> The site is here:
> http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng
>
> Other sites can be found by Googling, "light a virtual candle".
>
> Peace,
> Wednesday
>

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eva.pitter@... <eva.pitter@...>

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mariewalsh2003

Marie uploaded this file and its other half:

File : /Rylands Latin MS 113 Bottom Half.jpg
Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
Description : part of de la Pole genealogy


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Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Marie. I can't read the Latin text, but it looks to me as if the genealogy shows Richard (young, handsome, and blond!) as the rightful successor of Edward IV, with his children off to the side (as bastards?) and Henry as an out-of-nowhere usurper (the black line appearing from nowhere) but married to EoY.

Is part of the genealogy missing? I assume that the group off to Richard's left is the de la Poles, but I can't tell exactly what's implied. Does anyone quote and translate the Latin text? Also, whose possession was it found in? I assume that had it been found in Lincoln's tent after Stoke, it would have been burned as treasonous and heretical. If it belonged to Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk (Lincoln's mother), it reveals a lot about her loyalties!

Carol

Hi Carol,

My Latin is not brilliant.

But I would say that what it does say about the 'Princes' is very significant.

As you say, it does not seem to recognise the reign of Edward V all. However, it does say 'dead in childhood'.

This would seem to indicate that the head of the House of York knew or believed them to be dead. This puts a very different complexion on the various pretenders. It could be a very important document - I am surprised Penn did not read it!

Kind regards
David




Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
From: justcarol67@... [] <>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to
Sent: Sat, Jul 26, 2014 7:38:34 PM

 

Marie uploaded this file and its other half:

File : /Rylands Latin MS 113 Bottom Half.jpg
Uploaded by : mariewalsh2003
Description : part of de la Pole genealogy


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/Rylands%20Latin%20MS%20113%20Bottom%20Half.jpg

Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Marie. I can't read the Latin text, but it looks to me as if the genealogy shows Richard (young, handsome, and blond!) as the rightful successor of Edward IV, with his children off to the side (as bastards?) and Henry as an out-of-nowhere usurper (the black line appearing from nowhere) but married to EoY.

Is part of the genealogy missing? I assume that the group off to Richard's left is the de la Poles, but I can't tell exactly what's implied. Does anyone quote and translate the Latin text? Also, whose possession was it found in? I assume that had it been found in Lincoln's tent after Stoke, it would have been burned as treasonous and heretical. If it belonged to Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk (Lincoln's mother), it reveals a lot about her loyalties!

Carol

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File : /RIII's birth chart, wrong.pdf
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mariewalsh2003

Thanks for posting this Marie. It is a solar chart, set for sunrise with the sun on the ascendant, which is one of two ways of interpreting a chart when you don't know the birth time (the other being for setting it to 12 noon.) Although some people are born with the sun rising, I assume that is what she is doing here. Anyway, I'll post my findings when I have considered all the options.
Nico


On Tuesday, 18 November 2014, 16:33, "" <> wrote:



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mariewalsh2003

Hi Nico,
I am looking forward to read about your findings1
Eva

So am I Nico. I know absolutely nothing about all this but it sound fascinating. H
From: "eva.pitter@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Hi Nico,
I am looking forward to read about your findings1
Eva

Hi,
I have tested the 2:44 am data given by Marie, and find it works well, so I will use this one in my interpretation rather than the astrodatabank chart. I'll keep you posted.
Nico




On Thursday, 20 November 2014, 22:28, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:


So am I Nico. I know absolutely nothing about all this but it sound fascinating. H
From: "eva.pitter@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Hi Nico,
I am looking forward to read about your findings1
Eva

Also, if there is anything in particular anyone would like to know about Edward, please let me know.
Nico


On Monday, 24 November 2014, 12:57, "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <> wrote:


Hi,
I have tested the 2:44 am data given by Marie, and find it works well, so I will use this one in my interpretation rather than the astrodatabank chart. I'll keep you posted.
Nico




On Thursday, 20 November 2014, 22:28, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:


So am I Nico. I know absolutely nothing about all this but it sound fascinating. H
From: "eva.pitter@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 19 November 2014, 18:57
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Hi Nico,
I am looking forward to read about your findings1
Eva

Thanks Marie,

The 1475 campaign was one of the events that I checked the chart for accuracy, and it is very active at that time, so I will be referring to it. The chart shows a great deal of ambition, aggression and restlessness, so his astrologers would have advised caution and careful planning. I doubt he would have listened though.

Nico




On Monday, 24 November 2014, 16:34, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


Nico wrote:"Also, if there is anything in particular anyone would like to know about Edward [IV], please let me know."
Marie:I realise this would probably require further calculations, but is there anything in his chart that might have worried his astrologers as he prepared to embark on the French campaign in 1475?
By the way, you asked earlier about birth details for Edward V. His birth date was 2nd November, All Souls Day - that is given in several contemporary sources. But I'm not aware of any source that gives the time of his birth.

Actually, on the same sort of point, is there anything to indicate why he might have pulled out of the Scottish campaign? I recall he did show quite a bit of enthusiasm at first and even left London, but then handed it all over to Richard. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 11:34
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Thanks Marie,

The 1475 campaign was one of the events that I checked the chart for accuracy, and it is very active at that time, so I will be referring to it. The chart shows a great deal of ambition, aggression and restlessness, so his astrologers would have advised caution and careful planning. I doubt he would have listened though.

Nico




On Monday, 24 November 2014, 16:34, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


Nico wrote:"Also, if there is anything in particular anyone would like to know about Edward [IV], please let me know."
Marie:I realise this would probably require further calculations, but is there anything in his chart that might have worried his astrologers as he prepared to embark on the French campaign in 1475?
By the way, you asked earlier about birth details for Edward V. His birth date was 2nd November, All Souls Day - that is given in several contemporary sources. But I'm not aware of any source that gives the time of his birth.

Hi Hilary,
I'll have a look at that too. The placement of Jupiter in Edward's chart suggests that initial enthusiasm followed by loss of interest is a constant feature of his life. The relevant dates for the Scottish campaign a would be from October1480, when he started planning it, the main action in the winter of 1481-82, up to the capture of Berwick on 24/8/82, so I'll see what the astrological indicators are.

Nico

On Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 11:41, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:


Actually, on the same sort of point, is there anything to indicate why he might have pulled out of the Scottish campaign? I recall he did show quite a bit of enthusiasm at first and even left London, but then handed it all over to Richard. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 11:34
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Thanks Marie,

The 1475 campaign was one of the events that I checked the chart for accuracy, and it is very active at that time, so I will be referring to it. The chart shows a great deal of ambition, aggression and restlessness, so his astrologers would have advised caution and careful planning. I doubt he would have listened though.

Nico




On Monday, 24 November 2014, 16:34, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


Nico wrote:"Also, if there is anything in particular anyone would like to know about Edward [IV], please let me know."
Marie:I realise this would probably require further calculations, but is there anything in his chart that might have worried his astrologers as he prepared to embark on the French campaign in 1475?
By the way, you asked earlier about birth details for Edward V. His birth date was 2nd November, All Souls Day - that is given in several contemporary sources. But I'm not aware of any source that gives the time of his birth.

Thanks Nico - this is all fascinating. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 12:01
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Hi Hilary,
I'll have a look at that too. The placement of Jupiter in Edward's chart suggests that initial enthusiasm followed by loss of interest is a constant feature of his life. The relevant dates for the Scottish campaign a would be from October1480, when he started planning it, the main action in the winter of 1481-82, up to the capture of Berwick on 24/8/82, so I'll see what the astrological indicators are.

Nico

On Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 11:41, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:


Actually, on the same sort of point, is there anything to indicate why he might have pulled out of the Scottish campaign? I recall he did show quite a bit of enthusiasm at first and even left London, but then handed it all over to Richard. H
From: "Nicholas Brown nico11238@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 November 2014, 11:34
Subject: Re: New file uploaded to

Thanks Marie,

The 1475 campaign was one of the events that I checked the chart for accuracy, and it is very active at that time, so I will be referring to it. The chart shows a great deal of ambition, aggression and restlessness, so his astrologers would have advised caution and careful planning. I doubt he would have listened though.

Nico




On Monday, 24 November 2014, 16:34, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


Nico wrote:"Also, if there is anything in particular anyone would like to know about Edward [IV], please let me know."
Marie:I realise this would probably require further calculations, but is there anything in his chart that might have worried his astrologers as he prepared to embark on the French campaign in 1475?
By the way, you asked earlier about birth details for Edward V. His birth date was 2nd November, All Souls Day - that is given in several contemporary sources. But I'm not aware of any source that gives the time of his birth.

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ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>

Marie, if what you suspect about the haicolour being only a statistical prediction based on the eye-colour ,
turns out to be fact, this would be very disappointing really. I agree with you that blue eyes not so seldom go with dark hair as well. Just assuming the statistical average would IMHO be poor scientific research. Is
that all they can say ( though I don't know if the scientist said so) that he had blond hair as child which would
have turned darker as he grew up?
Eva

Eva again.
I think I must make amends to my last post. It was neither fair nor clever to talk of poor science. I am in no position to judge the work of the scienists concerned. I was rather emotional for it seems I always expect
more explicit answers than science can really offer.

Msrie wrote :

"I also notice that there was no Y chromosome DNA match with the modern-day Beauforts. I wonder if suspicion of 'false paternity events' was the reason why the Duke of Beaufort had turned down JAH's original request for a DNA sample. On the other hand, perhaps John Beaufort wasn't Gaunt's child after all. Do we now need a Y-chromosome sample from a medieval Beaufort?"

Carol responds:

Another, more troubling, possibility: Maybe Richard's grandfather. Richard of Conisburgh, Earl of Cambridge, wasn't really Edmund of Langley's son? I think it's Stephen who has raised that possibility. Fortunately, despite the label "House of York," the Yorkists claimed the throne through the Mortimers and, ultimately, Edmund's older brother, Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, so even if Richard of Conisburgh was illegitimate, the Yorkist claim would be unaffected.

I hope, though, that the problem is in the Beaufort line (already troubled by illegitimacy on at least two counts)! How about a Y-chromosome sample from both John of Gaunt or Edmund of Langley and Richard of Conisburgh? That would, I think, resolve this particular question. (We still have the problem of Edward IV's legitimacy, but that's immaterial here.)

Carol

John “Beaufort” is indeed my suspect for false paternity – I have suggested that he was a legitimate Swynford.

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 04 December 2014 15:48
To:
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: New file uploaded to

Msrie wrote :

"I also notice that there was no Y chromosome DNA match with the modern-day Beauforts. I wonder if suspicion of 'false paternity events' was the reason why the Duke of Beaufort had turned down JAH's original request for a DNA sample. On the other hand, perhaps John Beaufort wasn't Gaunt's child after all. Do we now need a Y-chromosome sample from a medieval Beaufort?"

Carol responds:

Another, more troubling, possibility: Maybe Richard's grandfather. Richard of Conisburgh, Earl of Cambridge, wasn't really Edmund of Langley's son? I think it's Stephen who has raised that possibility. Fortunately, despite the label "House of York," the Yorkists claimed the throne through the Mortimers and, ultimately, Edmund's older brother, Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence, so even if Richard of Conisburgh was illegitimate, the Yorkist claim would be unaffected.

I hope, though, that the problem is in the Beaufort line (already troubled by illegitimacy on at least two counts)! How about a Y-chromosome sample from both John of Gaunt or Edmund of Langley and Richard of Conisburgh? That would, I think, resolve this particular question. (We still have the problem of Edward IV's legitimacy, but that's immaterial here.)

Carol

Stephen wrote:

John Beaufort is indeed my suspect for false paternity  I have suggested that he was a legitimate Swynford.

Doug here:

All the more reason for Henry Tudor to base his claim to the throne on conquest...

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b.eileen25 <cherryripe.eileenb@...>

Some of you will have seen Daniel Williams article already but for those that haven't some interesting reading.
Someone posted that Catesby 'betrayed' Richard..well I do believe he betrayed his patron Hastings. The gains he made by the death of Hastings are absolutely astonishing. My take is that Catesby knew about the pre-conctact as did Hastings..Catesby dropped Hastings right in it and what took place from that betrayal is history. He was also close to Stanley...and Hancock suggests in his book Richard lll and the Murder in the Tower that Catesby may have saved Stanley's son, Strange, from execution at Bosworth. He certainly saw fit to reprimand them in his Will for letting him down...
Also pointed out in the article is that Catesby wife, Margaret's mother Elizabeth St John was 'in addition to being the sister of the Abbess of Shrewsbury was also the half sister of Margaret Beaufort'.
Eileen

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b.eileen25 <cherryripe.eileenb@...>

I can't see the file in the Files section and the link doesn't work. Was it yanked for being a copyrighted work?
Tamara

Sorry Tamara..that was me..I uploaded Whodunit: The Suspects in the Case..Helen Maurer..which is an oldie but still one of the best..I had trouble googling for it so when I eventually found it thought it would be a good idea to upload it to our files..but sadly it wouldn't open once I did that so I deleted it..If anyone can tell me where Im going wrong I will have another attempt....Eileen

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Description : Explanation of Astrological Terms


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https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/Warriors%20Database/AstroGlossary.docx


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


nico11238 <nico11238@...>

Hi Carol,

I deleted the files because they accidentally went into warriors database. I want to repost them as a separate topic, but I don't know how. Can you help?
Nico


On Thursday, 20 October 2016, 20:17, "justcarol67@... []" <> wrote:


I'm getting an invalid path notification for all three recently uploaded files. Anyone else having this problem?

Carol

The way I do it is to go to the website, click on Files, then click on Upload.

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /EDWARDIV.astro.docx
Uploaded by : nico11238 <nico11238@...>
Description : Astrological Profile of Edward III:
I. Character II. Primary Events III Personal Relationships


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/EDWARDIV.astro.docx


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


nico11238 <nico11238@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /EdwardIV.chartdiagram.docx
Uploaded by : nico11238 <nico11238@...>
Description : Astrological Chart for Edward IV


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/EdwardIV.chartdiagram.docx


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


nico11238 <nico11238@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /AstroGlossary.docx
Uploaded by : nico11238 <nico11238@...>
Description : Brief Explanation of Astrological Terms


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/AstroGlossary.docx


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


nico11238 <nico11238@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /Elizabeth Darcy Tyrell-101.jpg
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Elizabeth Darcy (died 1469) wife of William Tyrell from Long Melford


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/Elizabeth%20Darcy%20Tyrell-101.jpg


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /Anne Ogard Crane-105.jpg
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Anne Ogard (died 1521) wife of Robert Crane & Renfry Arundel Long Melford Church


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/Anne%20Ogard%20Crane-105.jpg


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /Lady chapel Arch.jpg
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Lady Chapel Arch built 1460/1496 Long Melford. The RR and III are mirror-image on the top left-hand side


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/Lady%20chapel%20Arch.jpg


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.


File : /TwoCoffinsDraftV2.rtf
Uploaded by : drajhtoo <ajhibbard@...>
Description : pdf of article published in the journal of the Yorkshire Branch (in 3 parts staring with the December 2015 issue) about the alleged two unidentified coffins at St George's Windsor


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/TwoCoffinsDraftV2.rtf


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


drajhtoo <ajhibbard@...>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.

File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Hi folks a little present :) :) Those in blue print are 1483 rebels. Enjoy! H
On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 14:53:57 GMT, <> wrote:

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.

File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Can't access it.

Carol

---In , <> wrote :

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.

File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Me neither
Pamela----Original message----
From :
Date : 24/12/2018 - 22:44 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: New file uploaded to







Can't access it.
Carol
---In , <> wrote :
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.
File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.
You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398
Regards,
hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

The help section says you can attach it as an email attachment to the group.  I'm going to have a go.  If not I'll have to think of something else.  H


On Tuesday, 25 December 2018, 06:46:23 GMT, Pamela Furmidge pamela.furmidge@... [] <> wrote:

 
Me neither
Pamela----Original message----
From :
Date : 24/12/2018 - 22:44 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: New file uploaded to







Can't access it.
Carol
---In , <> wrote :
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.
File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.
You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398
Regards,
hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>

Sorry, still hasn't worked has it even though Yahoo instructions says it should. And it certainly wasn't too big. It doesn't seem to be a 'banned' format either. I'll keep at it but this seems to be a regular flaw in Yahoo. H
On Tuesday, 25 December 2018, 10:07:26 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

The help section says you can attach it as an email attachment to the group. I'm going to have a go. If not I'll have to think of something else. H

On Tuesday, 25 December 2018, 06:46:23 GMT, Pamela Furmidge pamela.furmidge@... [] <> wrote:


Me neither
Pamela----Original message----
From :
Date : 24/12/2018 - 22:44 (GMTST)
To :
Subject : Re: New file uploaded to







Can't access it.
Carol
---In , <> wrote :
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
group.
File : /bosworth pdf.pdf
Uploaded by : hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
Description : Names, affinity and ages of those who died at Bosworth as at 22 Dec 2018 by HJ. Final pages show age at death. Those in grey died.
You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups//files/bosworth%20pdf.pdf
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398
Regards,
hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>