Worcester Nuns

Marie. Yes, I agree that "Our Lady" would be the Virgin Mary, while "My
lady" would be an ordinary human female of gentry of aristocratic
status. But what if the term "our lady" was a contraction of "our
ladies of Worcester"? This would imply a religious community - perhaps
one with a connection to one or other of the families in the "Find the
d Lady" thread. I cannot remember who were the main supporters of the
two (?) nunneries in or around Worcester, but it would be interesting
of somebody knows the answer.

--- In , "Stanley C.Jenkins"
<stanleyc.jenkins@...> wrote:
>
> Marie. Yes, I agree that "Our Lady" would be the Virgin Mary,
while "My
> lady" would be an ordinary human female of gentry of aristocratic
> status. But what if the term "our lady" was a contraction of "our
> ladies of Worcester"? This would imply a religious community -
perhaps
> one with a connection to one or other of the families in the "Find
the
> d Lady" thread. I cannot remember who were the main supporters of the
> two (?) nunneries in or around Worcester, but it would be interesting
> of somebody knows the answer.


I've never personally encountered this term used of nunneries, though
you may be right. I tried googling the term but all I got was websites
of ladies of ill repute! I'm also not sure I'm convinced by the
scenario of Margaret Beaufort travelling all the way down to Worcester
to visit multiple local nunneries, not very well known, when there was
a well-known shrine in the cathedral.

Besides, I'm sticking to my guns on this one. As I said, I've had to do
a bit of research lately on Worcester at this period, and one thing
that has come out it is that its cathderal was rarely referred to
simply as the cathedral, but pretty much always by its dedication to
the BVM, either as St Mary's or Our Lady's. If I had encountered that
sentence of Holinshed's on my own I honestly wouldn't have given its
meaning a second thought.
Just as a couple of examples, in his will Bishop Robert Morton left 20
marks to the Cathedral of St Mary of Worcester ("Lego Ecclesie
Cathedrale Beate marie Wigorn. . . "). The Worcester merchant Robert
Oseney asked to be buried "in the Cathedrall church of oure Lady within
Worsitur". Many churches in medieval England were dedicated to the BVM
and they were all referred to as the church of either St Mary or of Our
Lady as the fancy took the writer.
The other obstacle to any alternative interpretation is that, since to
anyone at the time "Our Lady of Worcester" would naturally have meant
the cathedral and/or its statue, if someone meant something else by it
they would have felt the need to be more specific.

Marie

Whistones nunnery, within the confines of Worcester, and Cookhill, a
few miles away from the city, were both Cistercian houses and, as such,
they would typically have been referred-to as "White Ladies". I was
suggesting, in a previous post, that one or other of these nunneries
could have been connected with the Beauforts, but in fact Cookhill was
associated with the Beauchamp family (my mistake!) However, my other
suggestion, that an aristocratic lady could have found suitable
accommodation in a nunnery is still valid.

--- In , "Stanley C.Jenkins"
<stanleyc.jenkins@...> wrote:
>
> Whistones nunnery, within the confines of Worcester,

It wasn't then, viz: "The tithing of Whistones was taken into the
city of Worcesterunder the Municipal Corporation Act, 1832. . . "
(VCH Worcestershire, vol 3, p.300 - available online)

and Cookhill, a
> few miles away from the city,

Not "of Worcester" either, then.

were both Cistercian houses and, as such,
> they would typically have been referred-to as "White Ladies".

Yes, she could have said she was going to visit White Ladies, but she
didn't (not even 'our ladies', as you suggested before). Holinshed
has her say she is going to "Our Lady" of Worcester, and Our Lady can
only be the Virgin Mary. Just as "Our Lord" could only mean Jesus
Christ. That's Catholic parlance, I'm afraid. The first person plural
possessive pronoun makes a crucial difference.

And Our Lady of Worcester was well known.

Medieval documents are often contracted, and I am suggesting that "our
lady" (ies) may be such a contraction. Without seeing the original text
we are unable to say anything further than that.

--- In , "Stanley C.Jenkins"
<stanleyc.jenkins@...> wrote:
>
> Medieval documents are often contracted, and I am suggesting
that "our
> lady" (ies) may be such a contraction. Without seeing the original
text
> we are unable to say anything further than that.

Stanley,

1) The link Roslyn gave us was to an online photographed copy of an
early printed edition. This is my paste from Roslyn's post, and it
doesn't make a usable link, but this is the web address anyway:
http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?
TextID=holinshed_\
chronicle&PagePosition=1976
You might be best of going back to her original post.
The bit about our Ladie of Worcestre is on the next page. As you will
see, it clearly says "Ladie" with no omission mark - not that these
would have been much in print anyway.

2) Omitting a final -s was not one of the contractions used in
medieval documents. There was an omission mark for final "es" but if
Holinshed had used that and it was omitted in print, Margaret would
have ended up visiting Our Ladi, or even Our Lad.

3) You have still not convinced me that the term "our ladies"
actually existed, still less that it meant nuns.

This reference would have been quite self-evident to any of
Holinshed's original readership. I hope I won't offend if I suggest
that it is like someone from an atheist future coming across a late
20th-century poster saying "Jesus Saves" and suggesting it may have
been a reference to a brilliant local doctor of Spanish parentage.
Quite plausible without the context of the times.
Equally, if you were in the Southern States and met a Baptist
minister who prattled on to you about "The Lord", he would be
unlikely to be referring to either the Duke of Northumberland or the
Lord's Tavern at the Middlesex County Cricket Club.